I've been having some conversations with others on the ELCA in general and problems associated therewith. During the course of this conversation, some interesting things poped up concerning the LBW. One of the topics is the use of the word "catholic" instead of "Christian" in the creeds. I have 8 different hymnals from various Lutheran churches, some dating back into the early parts of the century. Of these only the LBW uses "catholic"... >From one Kris Baudler: "2) As for all of the hulabaloo about "Catholic" vs."catholic," the truth is whether they hear it or read it, nearly all people in the pew automatically make the mental connection to the Church of Rome, never distinguishing between the "c's," unless the difference is explained to them again and again, and even then they don't get it. And we at the altar are always conscious of the fact that, on any given Sunday morning, someone, somewhere out there, thinks we're Roman Catholic. (The saints preserve us!) I'm not Rob Sain's equal when it comes to theology, but personally when it comes to "catholic", especially in the creed, I must admit I can take it or leave it, and actually I prefer to leave it. I grew up a Lutheran to the core, (5 generations of Lutheran pastors) professing from my earliest youth my faith in "the Holy Ghost, the Holy Christian church...". It's the direct translation from Luther's German of the Catechism "Ich glaube an den heiligen Geist (Ghost), ein heilige christliche (Christian) Kirche." The Latin is: "Credo in spiritum sanctum, sanctam ecclesiam catholicam." It was Luther who pointedly and most intentionally retained and used "christliche Kirche (Christian church)," instead of rendering it, as he most certainly could have, in the German as "katholische Kirche." In this the era of JDDJ, I personally have no love or use for the term "catholic," big "C", little "c", or otherwise." When we started looking into other places in the LBW, others have come up with: "<< The ELCA is praying for all who have died >> "I'm not. I don't subscribe to the Roman/Mormon practise of presuming to affect the status of the dead before God, rejection of which doctrine cost Luther an excommunication. They are now God's, and my prayers have no bearing on them." "Yes, RCs, Mormons, Episcopalians do. And guess what, I've been to quite a few funerals in the ELCA. And every one of those blissfully ignorant presiding pastors used his green book to tell God: "Grant us grace to entrust_________ to your never-failing love...Receive him/her intos the arms of your mercy..." And again: "Into our hands, O merciful Savior, we commend your servant________Acknowledge a sheep of your own fold...Receive him/her into the arms of your mercy, into the blessed rest of everlasting peace, and into the glorious company of the saints of light." And at the committal, instead of transmitting the blessing of the Lord upon the mourners and those who could use it in that weary hour, the pious pastor unctuously intones as he/she looks at the coffin, "The Lord bless him/her and keep him/her; the Lord make his face shine on him/he and be gracious to him/her. The Lord look upon him/her with favor and give him/her peace." Finally,"We commend our brother/sister to the Lord: May the Lord receive him/her into peace and raise him/her up on the last day." And so everybody goes home, confident that the green book with its borrowed heretical prayers has made it possible that the trip thru purgatory will be negotiated without having to change in and out of air-conditioned planes too many times on the way. What a travesty on the clear word of Scripture that death is followed by judgment. " Lots of interesting things that have been going on for a lot of years in the ELCA rjl In a message dated 9/5/2003 11:19:11 Eastern Daylight Time, AugsburgIV@aol.com writes: And if we went back even further we would dump "catholic" as well. NOT if you want to keep the "Symbolum Nicaeno-Constantipolitanum" as one of the three ecumenical creeds to which we subscribe quite explicitly in our Book of Concord. See "Bekenntnisschriften" pp.26-27: Latin (official and priority text) of the pertinent section: "Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam ecclesiam." German (following the [German] linguistic custom in the 16th century, in which the word "katholische" had not yet become common [only forced later upon RC Germans by Rome; at the time of the Reformation both parties used the customary German "christliche"]: "Und eine einige, heilige, christliche, apostolische Kirche." [Actually "eine einige" is a bit difficult to justify, as is the omission of "et=und" between "christliche" und "apostolische"; but the German is clearly the common, colloquial version used in its day, and has been somewhat revised (linguistically) down to the present, e.g. as used in SELK and at Zion: "Und die Eine, heilige, christliche, apostolische Kirche." or in the current use (Evangelisches Gesangbuch): "und die eine, heilige, allgemeine und apostolische Kirche." The Greek behind this mess, as near as I can transliterate it (sorry, I have found that my Greek fonts do not seem to transmit well on the internet) [I use "E" for eta; "O" for omega; "e" for epsilon; "o" for omicron; "h" for aspirated, rough breathing; omit smooth breathing; "th" for theta]: eís mían hagían katholikÈn kaì apostolikÈn ekklEsían. By the way, "native" English speakers (England, Scotland, Wales) seem never to have stumbled over "catholick" as a legitmate and proper translation into English of the adjective "catholicus, -a, -um", even though "Catholic" soon became a party name for the adherents of Rome after the reformations. The desire for some Brits of Roman sympathies to retain "catholic" in the creeds is understandable, but the Scots Presbyterians, given fiery John Knox??? Just check any other English worship book or resource (Presbyterian, Methodist, Book of Common Prayer, etc.) The substitution of "Christian" for "catholic" in English has been mostly a German-inspired, Lutheran and Reformed innovation by immigrants who choked on a word that sounded so much like the designation of the archenemy "die Katholiken" back in the homeland. The Scandinavians generally let themselves be influenced by the Germans, especially in matters theological, although their current usage (in the creeds) is something like "almennelig" = "allgemein" = universal, general. Unfortunately, I don't think either of those terms works very well in English. The ideal might be a truly ecumenical council (Roman, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican and Protestant) to hash out a truly common "ecumenical" English translation. Unfortunately, given the nature of living languages, the work would probably have to be done all over again in about 200 years; witness our Bible translations. Maybe in the meantime, to accomodate some sensitivities, and possibly reduce a bit of confusion, we could revert to the old spelling "catholick" with the "k" to assure people that we are not confessing adherence to a large hunk (Rome) of the Church that has misappropriated a proper designator of the whole to apply to its own party (whose claim to "catholicity" has become even more dubious since Vatican I about 1870). One last comment: the Orthodox churches (Greek, Slavonic [Russian, etc.] have also "changed" the Creed from its "conciliar" (plural) version to the singluar (I believe ...)! No "filioque", of course, but instead of "Pisteúomen ..." they say "PisteúO", and correspondingly in the third article. Some Orthodox have taken us in the West to task for reverting to the plural form as a confession of faith within the liturgy. What should be a personal confession (I believe) gets lost in the mob (we believe, but we're not so sure about folks like John Shelby Spong or V. Gene Robinson, to name a few). pax et gaudia, Friede und Freude, Rev. Dr. George R. Muenich, Dr.theol., S.T.S. Pastor, Zion German Evangelical Lutheran Church Pastor der Deutschen Evangelisch-Lutherischen Zion#kirche 125 Henry Street Brooklyn, NY 11201 (718) 852-2453